'Once upon a time, a good many years ago, there was a traveller...'
     Our story this month is a morality tale by Charles Dickens. The theme is quite recurrent in literature, but I hope it will give us opportunity to discuss, dispute and compare it to other similar texts.
    
     To read the story, please click here
    
     I hope you enjoy it :)
     Cheers - Chris

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Hi everyone
    
     I would like to post a couple of questions to kick off the discussion:
    
     Why do you think Dickens has chosen the tale genre for this story?
    
     What is your opinion of morality tales? Are they common/ similar in your traditions and cultures?
    
     Do you know any other stories or poems that we could compare to this in terms or message and content?
    
     Looking forward to hearing from you.
     Cheers - Chris

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Hi Chris & Everyone,
    
     In our view, this lovely story is filled with much symbolism. Not just the child, but also the boy, the young man, the middle-aged man, the old man represent the different stages in our Life. The Traveller encompasses them all!
     Playing, learning,loving, being always busy, remembering are the steps we all come through.
     I'd say "the journey" of our lives has its dark and bright side. It´s always positive when we get determined to pursue our "journey" facing the obstacles with faith, accompanied by our beliefs or whatsoever... We all have our "journey" to perform, and it is necessary for us "to be always busy"!
     The old man brings back near the traveller his beloved ones"all his friends came softly back and stood around him. ... everyone of them was there , and he lost nothing."
     The Author conveys the grandeur of memories that should keep living with us and make us honour and love our ancestors! I think Charles dickens clearly expresses his love for mankind.
    
     Thank you, Chris, for this wonderful pick we enjoyed re-reading.

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Hi Chris & Everyone
    
     Following my recent posting, and just saying "sorry!" for the unchecked spelling... Dickens.
     Thank you very much.
     Cheers,
     Maria

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Hi friends,
     Lovely to read you all, Hi Maria!
     Lovely to read this story so full of life, so full of travelling tickets and memories.This reading brought me back to this quotation by C. Garcia : Memory, I´m convinced, is the worst of traitors" in Loustau´s Cuerpos Errantes. Thought-provoking, isn´t it?
     Hugs from Argentina
     Pilar

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Dear All,
    
     Thanks Maria for your enriching comment and Pilar for the quotation.
    
     In my opinion the traveller's memory doesn't fail and his journey is a journey of a living soul from being a child to old age. And he brings the stages of life like a ladder and at the same time encourages that if you're a child do what children do, if you're a boy... and one day you will be telling your memories.
    
     Just a thought provoking question I put to myself: Who are the people sitting there with the grandfather when he was telling the story? I thought it must be the offspring of those who "went" to sea, to India and seek fortune where they could. And I sadly remembered the one who said: "Father, I am going to Heaven!" and later called "Mother, mother!" - where has he gone(!)?
    
     Thanks
     Tanguene

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Hi Everyone
    
     Indeed, this is apparently a quite simple story but we can always *complicate* it a bit :)
    
     Pilar's quote makes me think that the memories that are there at the end of the journey are not exactly just memories. They are made of that comes back to your mind- the old days and the people who were part of your life - but these recollections are read and built up by the person you are now. They are the product of what you became along the way and not a simple an straightforward connection with the past. All those people that 'came softly back and stood around him' became actually part of what he was at the moment. I think this is what Dickens meant by his last sentence in the story.
    
     What do you think??
     Cheers - Chris

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Dear friends,
     The people from the past and their influence on the present and the way the mind chooses to remember them : opting for some traits, deleting others, transforming the rest, says a lot about the way life/death deal.
     All those people assembling in a memorable gathering: the conclusive gathering of life. Life is but one memorable meeting of all the people we have met and of those we dream of meeting again. Life is to do with waking up one day and reckoning that we have turned into the sum of all these influential people we have ever met.
     hugs

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Dear Colleagues,
    
     I have appreciated your comments indeed.
     Now let me submit to you all just some further notes of reflection on that "magical journey".
     I think the traveller's memories mean the successive encounters and reencounters with the different life stages, the experiences you have appropriate to each stage. Amidst those experiences there's also, of course, the sad memories of those "who went to Heaven".
     We have thought the first child who said:" I am going to Heaven!" might symbolise a first generation who parted/died. Then the mother's generation and so forth. We also believe the reference to the "sunset" plays an important role here. Don't you thing it could be associated to the last days of the "Life Journey"?
     We agree with Chris when she quotes "those people who came softly back and ..." "became actually part of what he was at the moment." - Chris said.
     If you allow me, I'd just add : the moment was a mutual tribute (from all of them to Grandfather and from him to them)
     Best wishes,
     Maria

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Hi everyone
    
     You all seem to see these people in the story who the traveller meet along the way as other characters in the story. This is a very interesting reading, but quite different from my first one. Thanks for giving me this new perspective :)
    
     My first reaction to the story was to see all these *others* as no one else but the traveller himself and all the phases his has gone through in his life. The child, the lad, the busy man are all his other selves he recollects while he tells the story.
    
     It clearly reminds me Jaques and the Seven Ages of Man in 'As you Like It.'
    
     Cheers - Chris

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Dear All,
    
     I was touring around the poemhunter.com and found the thread below. It reminded me of Chid's story. If we compare we'll find out the story in the poem and in the tale is similar. The traveller (grandpa) is in his "second childishness" stage if you look in the poem. And he has made all the journey we see in the Child's Story
    
     All the world's a stage,
    
     And all the men and women merely players;
     They have their exits and their entrances,
     And one man in his time plays many parts,
     His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
     Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
     Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
     And shining morning face, creeping like snail
     Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
     Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
     Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
     Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
     Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
     Seeking the bubble reputation
     Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
     In fair round belly with good capon lined,
     With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
     Full of wise saws and modern instances;
     And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
     Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
     With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
     His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
     For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
     Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
     And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
     That ends this strange eventful history,
     Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
     Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
    
     William Shakespeare
    
     Source: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/all-the-world-s-a-stage/
    
    
     Thanks,
     Tanguene

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Hi Tanguene and All
    
     Thanks for posting the passage. This is Jaques' speech on the seven ages of men in As You Like It' that I mentioned above :)
    
     Indeed, there is a lot of similarity there. As we know, Shakespeare was always concerned with time and transitority, see Sonnet 60, for example. what I think most interesting though is the sort of positive way Dickens' finishes his tale in opposition to Sakespeare's 'mere oblivion;/Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.'
    
     What do you think?
    
     Cheers - Chris

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Thanks Chris, Jaques and everyone. I’ve picked the Sonnet LX for sharing our reading together:
    
     Sonnet LX
    
     Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore,
     So do our minutes hasten to their end;
     Each changing place with that which goes before,
     In sequent toil all forwards do contend.
     Nativity, once in the main of light,
     Crawls to maturity, wherewith being crown'd,
     Crooked elipses 'gainst his glory fight,
     And Time that gave doth now his gift confound.
     Time doth transfix the flourish set on youth
     And delves the parallels in beauty's brow,
     Feeds on the rarities of nature's truth,
     And nothing stands but for his scythe to mow:
     And yet to times in hope my verse shall stand,
     Praising thy worth, despite his cruel hand.
    
    
     What I most love in Shakespeare is his rare capacity of observing the world around and tells what he feels and thinks about it (please, note that he doesn’t even try to change it but only describes). Being a good observer is internal, but letting “readers” know how “conscious” you are about the world you live in takes artistic bravery. It is really difficulty and challenging for any reader to accept the way the poet thinks and to accept the gloom picture he gives the entire life and world. In my opinion, this is a technique he uses to put much value on his work, because he just observers and let us know what he sees and in between also let us know what he’s doing to postpone the sure end of the world – writing. In this way after reading I sense comes salient is his writing, and it seems the poet “assumes” writing makes a difference and can save the world!
    
    
     By reading the sonnet LX I feel as he is telling us “We’re born and live in the world which is not ours, we pass by different stages, we crawl from “insignificance to significance”, and we are not to stay here forever, but (I hope that) my verse will stay forever”, thus:
    
     “And nothing stands but for his scythe to mow:
     And yet to times in hope my verse shall stand,
     Praising thy worth, despite his cruel hand.”
    
     We see a mightier being ruling over that will take everything away, but we still have to praise it “despite his cruel hand.”
    
    
     I agree the sonnet LX, “All the world’s Stage” and some others convey the transitority and effects of time upon life to a reader. Charles Dickens’s “Child’s Story” stops at one stage of life in which Shakespeare chose not stop and continued describing the later stages. I think it is there where it becomes gloom, and we see the end “Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.' “
    
     It can be in oblivion but he excels the limits of life by showing humanity and the strength of his everlasting work!
    
     Best regards,
     Tanguene

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Hi Chris,
    
     Thank you for reminding us of Shakespeare's Sonnet 60, and with it the poet's concern with "time and transitority".
     Still regarding "All the world's a stage ..." we think the poet portrays "the last stage of life" (be it the sixth or seventh ...) as a very sad, "oblivious" one, at the point of no conscious recognition, no senses at all.. Here the poet makes us feel unuseful, destroyed, we think.
     We rejoice with "the positive way Dickens finishes his tale", as you put it. Last scene... in Dickens's tale
     is much more an example worthy of great praise of the human being: "... and all his friends came softly back and stood around him."; "... and they all honoured and loved him."
    
     Thanks,
     Maria

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Hi Tanguene, Chris & Everyone
    
     Thank you for your latest posting as well as your views on how difficult it sometimes is for us "readers" to accept the poet's thoughts, his inner vision of the world, how he wants to describe and observe it. If you notice my previous words while talking to Chris, I think it precisely happened with me regarding "the last scene" in Shakespeare's "All the world's a stage ..."
     You also think that it is a "technique" the poet uses "to put much value on his work". Well, it might be the case of Shakespeare and other remarkable poets. But it certainly is a very demanding task!
     By the way, if you all allow me, I sometimes think Shakespeare, the poet, is not modest enough when it comes to his "writing", despite all respected eloquence in it. I'd like to know your opinion on the following lines:
     e.g. "...O, none, unless this miracle have might,/ That in black ink my love may still shine bright." (Sonnet 65); "... you still shall live - such virtue hath my pen - where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men." (Sonnet 81)
     Please feel free to criticise my impression...
    
     Best regards,
     Maria

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Hi Tanguene, Maria do Ceu and All
    
     Thanks Tanguene for bringing Sonnet 60 into the discussion. It's one of my favourites and a very good one to use with teachers and advanced groups, we can cross it with Jaques speech and Dicken's story and use some time-line activities :)
    
     As for the lack of modesty Maria do Ceu mentions, indeed it appears in one form or another in many of Shakespeare's codas and it is one of the sonnet conventions. The poet claims to be able to defeat time with his poetry. You can look at it from a historical perspective and realise that life in early modern times was much shorter and uncertain than now and also from a political perspective - most poets were also courtiers and writing to immortalise your monarch or your patron could also guarantee some priviledges at the Court.
    
     Apart from being cynical though, we can say that if one of them has really succeeded in defeating time with his poetry, it's definitely been Master Shakespeare, at least in our times :)
     What do you think Maria?
    
     Cheers - Chris

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Hi Maria, Chris and all,
    
     I would like to first comment on the lines from sonnet 65 and 81 Maria hath brought for discussion, the
    
    
     SONNET LXXXI
    
     Or I shall live your epitaph to make,
     Or you survive when I in earth am rotten;
     From hence your memory death cannot take,
     Although in me each part will be forgotten.
     Your name from hence immortal life shall have,
     Though I, once gone, to all the world must die:
     The earth can yield me but a common grave,
     When you entombed in men's eyes shall lie.
     Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
     Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
     And tongues to be your being shall rehearse
     When all the breathers of this world are dead;
     You still shall live -- such virtue hath my pen --
     Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men.
    
     conbined with the line:
    
     "That in black ink my love may still shine bright"
    
     from sonnet 65 is like this line is the first one for the sonnet 81, and look it starts with "or" and leave the impression it has started somewhere else.
    
     and the ink take us into writing as an expression of love that will "may still shine bright"!
    
     I sometimes have a feeling that the poet wants to intentionally annoy the reader by challenging him before some truths of life and the world we line in and while doing that he fails to keep being modest. But I always have impression the poet cares about being modest but he fails as result of the imperfection of the world. I think Luis de Camoes does the same, but the difference is that Camoes "looks down" on his art and brings love has the everlasting thing of all while for Shakespeare what will stay forever is his verse, thus:
    
     "Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
     Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
     And tongues to be your being shall rehearse
     ...
     You still shall live -- such virtue hath my pen --
     Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men."
    
     giving us the impression that the verse can really defeat time for even the still yet to be born will learn about:
    
     "Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,"
    
     on the days no one will be alive:
    
     "When all the breathers of this world are dead;"
    
     and you realize that untill this day comes everything is still postponed. And postponed forever.
    
     Thanks
    
     Tanguene

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Hi Chris, Tanguene & Everyone,
    
     I realise and agree on your previous points, Chris. Undoubtedly, even in today's world Shakespeare is more than a living presence. He is recognised as a universal value. We could also say he predicted some problems of these times. e.g. today's suffering, violence. Relevant themes of our time are found in his work: e.g the issue of freedom and responsibility in "Julius Caesar".
    
     In fact, he really was a Master on interpreting the deepest aspirations of mankind, with a modern sensitivity and in terms of "elevated poetry"!
    
     Thank you very much Tanguene for posting the Sonnet LXXXI, and for your clear, personal interpretation of those lines. I was very glad to read your thoughts as well as reminding us of another brilliant, living presence - Camões - who is so dear to us!
    
     Best regards,
     Maria

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Dear Maria
    
     I wish I could read Camões sonnets in English. I've never read one so far and my best favourite is "Erros meus...". I enjoyed Camões untill I could know some of his threads by heart. He is really a brilliant mind indeed and has impacted on my life greatly!
    
     Thank you very much.
    
     Tanguene

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Hi Tanguene,
    
     So far I have never seen any translation of Camões's lyric poetry. But I promise to investigate about it soon...
     I just have a translation of the epic poem, "The Lusíads", by Landeg White. He respected the eight-line units of the original text with its formal closes. This translator said:"I have adopted a diction and prosody free to reflect the subtle modernity of Camões's style."
     I confess I have just read some stanzas from Canto One. If you allow me, and feel patient enough, here are the lines of stanza one- Canto One:
    
     "Arms are my theme, and those matchless heroes
     Who from Portugal's far western shores
     By oceans where none had ventured
     Voyaged to Taprobana and beyond,
     Enduring hazards and assaults
     Such as drew on more than human prowess
     Among for distant peoples, to proclaim
     A New Age and win undying fame;"
    
     Thank you for your attention.
     Maria

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Hi Maria, Hi Tanguene,
     I,ve been reading your discussion so far and I have found this,I can not judge the material, I leave it in your hands, hope this can be useful :http://accurapid.com/journal/36review1.htm
    
     ERROS MEUS, MÁ FORTUNA, AMOR ANDENTE
     My errors, ill fortune, and ardent love
     all connived together in my loss:
     but errors and fortune were superfluous
     in that love alone for me did quite enough.
     I survived all. But I still have present
     the great torment of things in the past,
     and those desperate passions impressed
     me I should never hope to be content.
     In all my life’s discourse, I was wrong.
     I gave Fortune good cause to castigate
     hopes that in the end had little purchase.
     Love had always a deceitful tongue.
     O, who could ever do enough to satiate
     this, my iron-willed, avenging genius!
    
     http://www.ronslate.com/collected_lyric_poems_lu_s_de_cam_es_tr_landeg_white_princeton_university_press
     Pilar

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Hi All,
     will thisbe of some help?N’ÁLMA UA SÓ FERIDA
     A soul that’s merely wounded
     shows a thousand signs of life:
     the more it reveals its grief
     the more it stays hidden.
     If they’re blind to my burden
     because they don’t wish to see it,
     what must I do to have credit?
     If only they could see
     how I dissemble what I feel,
     after such an ordeal
     I suppose I should be happy.
     But if those eyes that injure me
     don’t wish to see their remit,
     what must I do to have credit?
     ERROS MEUS, MÁ FORTUNA, AMOR ANDENTE
     My errors, ill fortune, and ardent love
     all connived together in my loss:
     but errors and fortune were superfluous
     in that love alone for me did quite enough.
     I survived all. But I still have present
     the great torment of things in the past,
     and those desperate passions impressed
     me I should never hope to be content.
     In all my life’s discourse, I was wrong.
     I gave Fortune good cause to castigate
     hopes that in the end had little purchase.
     Love had always a deceitful tongue.
     O, who could ever do enough to satiate
     this, my iron-willed, avenging genius!
     http://www.ronslate.com/collected_lyric_poems_lu_s_de_cam_es_tr_landeg_white_princeton_university_press
    
     O SULMONENSE OVIDIO, DESTERRADO
     Ovid, born in Sulmo and banished
     to remote, uncultured Tomis, imagined
     he could see his scattered flesh,
     His dear wife left abandoned,
     his sweet children, his minions,
     his eyes parted from his fatherland;
     and unable to contain his passion,
     he complained to the mountains and the rivers
     of the sad, dark day he was born.
     He reflected on the curse of the stars
     and how, from where he stood, the sky,
     air, and earth moved on in their order.
     The fish swimming in the Black Sea
     saw him, and ferocious beasts, following
     their instinct, treated him with equanimity.
     His witnessed from his own ducts flowing
     homesick rivers of crystal sorrow,
     the true mark of his inner being.
     http://www.ronslate.com/collected_lyric_poems_lu_s_de_cam_es_tr_landeg_white_princeton_university_press
     I can not judge the value of the translations, I leave it in your hands. Thanks for introducing me to Camoes!

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Dear Pilar,
    
     I would like to quote these lines from Blake's "The Tiger"
    
     "And What shoulder, and what art,
     Could twist the sinews of thy heart?"
    
     To say I felt the twist in my heart at your sharing Camões's sonnets in English. My words are not enough to show how the sinews of my heart twisted. true!
    
     I've signed in the ronslate.com blog and it's fascinating to see this! I can tell you a story, some 10 years ago I copied "Erros meus" using a blue marker on an A3 paper and stuck it on a wall in my bedroom. I was enfatuated then, but felt the sorrows of love. It was the time I found on Camões's lyrics some moments of peace and contemplation. these translations are really a great contribution to world literature, about the quality of translation I trust we'll find out soon. But the"Erros meus..." I'll take as it is now and be its lover and be (10 years) young at heart.
    
     Thank you so much
    
     Tanguene

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Dear Tanguene,
     This is what literature friends are for, once more I thank you both for having introduced me to Camoes.
     This is what literature does. making us all feel young at heart!
     Best!

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Dear Pilar and dear Tanguene,
    
     How nice of you, Pilar, for your quick reference about our immortal Poet, Camões. The translator is precisely the same - Landeg White - who translated the epic poem, "The Lusíads". Thank you very much indeed for your precious reference.
     I do realise how happy you also must feel, Tanguene.
     After all, Pilar has done an extraordinary, efficient homework!
     I've already browsed Ron Slate's blogspot, and it provides a plethora of materials for literature lovers.
     Thank you both so much.
     Best wishes,
    
     Maria

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Hi Maria, Tanguene, Pilar and Everyone
    
     I've been following your discussion about Camoes and it makes me think about English. There have been so many discussions about how the hegemony of English is threatening other languages and so one and so forth. It is also true that the literature is best read in the original language. However, if it was not for English, Camoes words would be lost to most of us and so it is with other poets and writers around the world. Thanks to English we can all delight on their works.
     Thanks Tanguene!!!
     Cheers - Chris

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Good Morning,
    
     While I was reading this story, I started remembering my own life just like the old man. I love the way it describes the places where he travels as if inviting us to enjoy the beauties of nature. It is excellent the way he talks about he going from stage to stage in human development, I lost the..............., only to finally at old age reencounter with every part of yourself.

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Dear Alecab,
    
     We've read a story I wished to share with you after reading your comments on the point of going from stage to stage in human development . The title is "the Bottle Neck" by Hans Christian Andersen and you can find it on http://www.aesopfables.com/aesop1.html or
     http://www.classicauthors.net/Andersen/TheBottleNeck/
     It's a good reading with lots of personalization and the main character (The bottle) is shown like it is going from stage to stage (and it seems to be travelling the opposite direction from the old man!).
    
     There are some passages where the reader is left with the impression the bottle is a living soul, who has had its ups and downs- “The bottle had no time to think, when raised so suddenly; and before it was aware, it reached the highest point it had ever attained in its life”- but “as it often happens in life, the part that had been uppermost was now turned downwards,”
    
     I would like that we compare the two travellers in both stories: The traveller in "the Child's Story" and the Bottle in "The Bottle Neck".
    
     Hope you find it interesting.
    
     Tanguene

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I read the fable and it is very good. I love the way anderson describes the situations and gets to the climax. I am an English teacher and I'll use this fable for my student the first day of class.
     Tahnk you

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Dear Alecab,
    
     Thank you for your proactive outlook on our chat about this story, and as you say it will be contunued in your class. To use this story for teaching a language was a rewarding experience we have had. In our reading group we just took some quotes and let the discussion flows. As we wanted to focus on the importance of being able to speak a language we quotted the following:
    
     “it is a great loss not to be able to understand a language”.
    
     ... but “For full twenty years it stood in the loft, and it might have stayed there longer but that the house was going to be rebuilt. The bottle was discovered when the roof was taken off; they talked about it, but the bottle did not understand what they said- a language is not to be learnt by living in a loft, even for twenty years”
    
     Thanks
    
     Tanguene

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